Site Finding2 - Warning! Warning! Warning!

[JavaGreen]

A site finder that I have used (do not anymore) and indeed many of you use has seemingly changed how they conduct business!

1. It works like this, you request some site Finding and they duly carry out the task and you pay.

2. Sometime later, the same site finder uses that site for another operator to install a different type of machine and, that is paid for.

Now without going into to many details, this in my mind is morally wrong as that site finder has surely lost your trust because they have underhandedly used your site that you have paid for in good intentions, to now find another operator in the same site with a machine that perhaps you could just as easily have installed. Of course, you may not have been in the position to have done this straight away however, you now find that you no longer have that option.

Perhaps the offending site finder just might come on here and try and belittle me and accuse me of ranting because I cannot find any sites myself. I am well know to some and can assure you this is not the case as I have several hundred sited. What I cannot tolerate is for other members to be ripped of this way.

And should anyone wish to have the evidence, they only have to PM me for a copy of the texts and I will gladly oblige if those that ask say in the pm:
Hi, my name is ......... can you please send me a copy of the texts so that I can determine if this is likely to affect my business in some way. That way you are telling me who you are and indeed, asking for freedom of information.

I am sure I shall post more information as when the need arises
Cheers
Pablo

[OscarHarris]

Hi Pablo,

You raise and interesting point.

In my opinion when you pay a site finder to site a machine, it is technically for that type of machine alone and does not include exclusive rights to the site and exclusivity on all future machines of your choosing to go in said site.

With that said we can probably agree that most of us offer sweet towers, Pringles towers and toy machines of various sorts. These groups of machines do tend to be offered together and run by the same operator. Any site finder in the industry would also know this. So while I don't think paying a site finder to install a sweet tower necessarily gives you the exclusive rights over say a Pringles or toy machine, I do think their would be conflict if the same site finder then got another operator in the same site with these other types of machine. I also think the site finder has an obligation to allow you to develop each site found with other machines.

For me the real conflict is down to intent:

Is the site finder intentionally targeting sites already found for you recently? (scenario 1)

Or

Is the site finder unintentionally coming across the same site some time later?

I think the first scenario is completely unacceptable. A site finder should not be getting a sweet tower in for you and then, knowing the site is prone to accepting machines, targeting them a week later for another operator with a Pringles or toy machine. This does not show the necessary courtesy to you for the job you have paid for previously. Knowing you would also provide these machines doesn't give you the chance to develop the site and would intentionally cause conflict between you and other operators. It would also create distrust between you and the site finder. Therefore given this scenario I can understand why someone would then stop using said site finder.

On the other hand I think scenario 2 is almost unavoidable. It is impossible to think, given the saturation of the market, the number of operators in each area and the limited number of potential sites that a single site finder can 100% avoid every site they may have ever found for everyone on there books. Even if their was a fail safe system of easily and accurately recording every site ever found, then cross referencing every single site against every potential site you ever call would be a logistical nightmare. More importantly it would be time consuming and therefore costly. For arguments sake lets say all of this was possible without cost or time, sites change, owners change, operators change. I don't know about you but I don't keep my site finders informed of every machine that is still in place after 6, 12, 18 months etc. Nor do I inform them when a machine has been removed. It is impossible to think that a site finder can know the status of every machine on every site ever found 6, 12 or 18 months down the line.

So in conclusion, if a site finder is systematically targeting successful sites found for you for other operators this is unacceptable, If however they are accidentally tripping over the same site sometime later, then this would be expected to a very small degree.

To confirm I have had scenario 2 happen to me on a few occasions. While I haven't liked it, I have always been happy to accept that there was no malicious intend on behalf of the site finder and on all occasions have been happy to continue working with them successfully and happily.

So which is it? Have you been systematically shafted on all recent site finding, which could be of great concern for all of us, me included. Or have you found a few machines sporadically appear on older sites, which for me isn't ideal but I can accept and live with.

If you could confirm it would be greatly appreciated and very helpful

Many thanks, Jay.

[Style]

If a site finder gets you a tower site for £25 and you then go and add a Pringles and a toy machine do you then go and pay them another £50? If not then I dont see how you can claim any exclusivity on that site.

[JavaGreen]

Hi Jay,
Good response.

So this happened to me twice in late August, took several weeks to find out what was happening.

So site 1.

1. Get a call from owner who was annoyed with a Pringles machine turning up without authority.
2. What Pringles machine we have not sighted it.
3. Owner, the office is too small for it so we want it off site.
4. Can you provide the name and details from the offending machine and we shall investigate this ASAP.
5. Owner, no details of name or anything is on machine, we want it removed.
6. Okay.
7. Owner, we are going to leave machine outside as we do not want it.
8. Okay, can you put it somewhere else other than outside until we trace the owner.
9. Owner, yes okay.
10. Eventual owner of Pringles collects machine.

Note: This is a very small garage operation, we had already asked if they wanted a Pringles machine and of course this was declined.
We investigated further by asking the Pringles owner why he had sited. He said site finder had got him the site. We further investigated and the mechanic said he got a phone call from a lady who said we see you have a sweet machine can we put a Pringles machine as well, mechanic said yes but did not have authority to do so.

Site2:
This is a site we have had for almost 4 years, it averages about 8 a month. It has plenty of space and we have previously asked if they would like a Pringles to either replace the sweet tower or as a combination, it was declined. In August we find a Pringles on site, no name or contact. We investigate and find it is the same operator. After a discussion to his credit he removed the Pringles.

In my view, we think it is unethical to site when a machine is already in situ. Think of it this way,

You trudge many miles looking for sites
In wind,
Rain
Snow
And the heat (LOL)

You are impressed with you work, then some unethical subject for one reason or the other sites a machine next to yours, just because they can!

How do you feel!

We have been doing this for almost five years and have hundreds. Is 1/2/3 going to cause us concerns. No! But when it gets to 30/40/50. What do you say then.
That’s business, me thinks not!
You nip it in the bud!

Going back to the equation, the site finder knew machines were on the premises because that is what they said to the owner.

[JavaGreen]

Andy,
I found your response very amusing!
Why?
You have been berating many people/operators and even tubz vending for doing the exact same thing to you.

Have you mellowed out/changed your stance/ or now just going with the flow?

You have many sites that have double machines, have you paid the site finder extra? I think not!

Every now and then, you just respond to a post to get a reaction.

If machines are placed next to yours you go bananas and will not let go for weeks/months and in tubz vending case years. My post was all about moral behaviour. The vast majority of operators have that in abundance, a couple slip the net occasionally.

[Style]

Hi Pablo,

No my stance hasnt changed. I dont agree with siting towers next to towers that are already there.

Yes I do blame tubz vending for this as in the 11 years I have been vending it has only ever happened to me with tubz vending machines. Mainly my gripe here is with tubz vending as operators though not sites (thats a separate gripe) as probably 80% of the times ive come across it tubz vending have been both operator.

Generally I dont think site finders have a clue who they are calling or that they may have sited machines there before. They just work through data bases and statistically are bound to repeat calls at certain times. When a site finder comes across a site that says on the phone they already have a tower I would expect them to leave the site alone. However some sites just say yes or think they are getting a box or something different as we all know. It is my experience that when tubz vending come across someone saying they already have a tower then their next line is " How much commission do you get?"..............

What you are describing is something different though and yes it has happened to me. But when I have a site with for example one sweet tower in and all of a sudden a toy machine or Pringles turns up then there is only one person I berate and that is me for missing the opportunity. ie, I was already there so had a relationship. It would have been easier for me. But somehow someone else has spotted an opportunity for a different type of machine I had missed. That's me that's messed up.

I dont pay site finders for getting these extra machines in because I consider it my job.

Well done though for getting these removed, thats exactly what I would try and do. Mind you once when I spoke to the operator in a similar situation they agreed to remove it and went back to tubz vending to get a new one only to be told by tubz vending, "No leave it there the site obviously isnt happy with there current provider otherwise they wouldnt have asked us for a tower." (********!!!!) That was a new tubz vending franchisee who I bought out for £100 a sited tower 6 months later.

All the best

Andy

[JavaGreen]

Hi Andy,

The series of posts occurred due in the main to the angry/nasty attitude of emails I got from the site finder concerned.

And consequently, was a reminder to the many operators of the tactics now being employed in this industry and some site finders. My mission, especially with sirefinder3 is to make sure that everyone knows what they are getting into from the offset, then it is their choice.

tubz vending, I have with now for nearly five years. I also tried Hurleys.

I very really have any trouble with tubz vending, indeed, occasionally they do site/double up on some of my sites however, that is because they did not know. A a brief pleasant conversation, they always remove the problem. I would like to think that this is in the main down to the good relations we have and not because I am a big customer.

In this instance and in relation to the post, it was the site finder that said, I see you have a sweet machine, do you mind if we install a Pringles machine as well. The mechanic did not have the authority but said yes, thinking it was my wife who was asking (we had done so previously) however, it is a very small site and besides the owner in this instance for the Pringles had not been authorised. The person siting the Pringles moved our machine out of site and put their machine in the spot of our sweet machine. Hope that make sense.

In the second site, the manager had the same scenario so thought he was speaking to my wife. So you have to ask, was the whole business conducted in a moral fashion, or was there some manipulation. Site Finding is hard, we know that because we do it ourselves, but, we refuse to start putting anywhere for the sheer hell of it. Our stance is, if machine is already on site, leave alone.
Cheers
Pablo

[OscarHarris]

Hi Pablo,

Thanks for the clarification.

The couple of examples you have detailed seem like my second scenario. While this can be annoying it doesn't appear that the site finder is systematically targeting these sites with prior knowledge they may already have from previous siting for you. Rather they seem to be tripping over some of your sites accidentally. Also they're not siting the same type of machine as you, which would automatically half your sales. As you don't have exclusivity over the site, getting a second different machine in seems fair game to me in these particular situations. Not ideal for you, but just part of the business.

Like I said this has happened to me also with several site finders and tubz vending. The good news is that the 1 or 2 have never grown into the 30 or 40 you maybe worried about. That's because no one is personally targeting me, just bumping into me once in a while. So as these have been random acts, statistically I'm safe.

I know from many conversations with other operators most of them share sites with others from time to time. Some of them with me haha.

I'm just glad we work in an industry where we are respectfull of each other's businesses and don't go chasing each other's sites and turfing our machines out etc. Most other industries are far more cut throat, that would really be something to worry about

Jay.

[DT Vending]

Well Said Jay a great response to all of this.

[Central2vend]

Hi pablo
Would you be kind enough to pm me the details please. Im about to start using some site finding and would prefer to avoid this situation.
Regards joe