"The problem with publishing prices and discounts openly is that your competitors know how much your quoting, and will try to undercut you to nick your customers. Pretty soon the suppliers will be working for nothing due to all the discounts they have had to give to get the big orders, and in the end we will all lose out.
Before getting into vending I used to run a contract cleaning company, and you can take it from me the worst thing you can do is publish your pricing. I once had the bright idea of offering to beat any current contract by 10%, so I had hundreds of leaflets printed, and took out a Google advert publicising it. All I got was phone calls from people who were paying about cost price for their contracts already, wanting to know if we could do it 10% cheaper. That's when I realised the industry had been completely ruined, by Mrs Mop franchisees and people that would be willing to drive themselves into bankruptcy just to get the customers.
I can see why suppliers try to keep contracts and pricing as private as possible, it stops price wars kicking off and everyone losing out!"
Mark@yorvend
I thought this subject deserved a separate thread.
What you are talking about is quite simple, it's called competition. Competition in the marketplace is normal and businesses should expect to compete with each other on pricing, this is part of business and good for the consumer as it keeps prices in check.
Supermarkets compete with each other, cash and carry's compete with each other and know each other's prices. Pretty much every business that involves selling something to someone else competes with other businesses in the same field, so why should vending suppliers be any different?
A supplier should base their prices on what it costs to produce whatever they are selling plus the costs of overheads and what they see as a reasonable profit, if another supplier decides they can sell it for less then that is up to them, and if a company cannot compete with the prices that are being offered elsewhere then they should get out of the business and someone else will take their place, that's how capitalism works.
Your comments -"Pretty soon the suppliers will be working for nothing due to all the discounts they have had to give to get the big orders, and in the end we will all lose out" and "I can see why suppliers try to keep contracts and pricing as private as possible, it stops price wars kicking off and everyone losing out!" do not make sense, how do we all lose out? Offering discounts and price wars may be something the suppliers want to avoid but they are good news for the customer.
Your anecdote about the cleaning business isn't really relevant, all it proves is that you shouldn't have offered to undercut anyone else's offer by 10%.
Another extremely important part of getting and retaining people's business other than prices is customer satisfaction/service and this is where I think the big two suppliers are making a huge mistake in the long run. If someone suspects that they are being charged more than other customers for the same goods then they are going to think the company is taking advantage of them and basically sees them as a mug, this is not good for long term loyalty to the supplier and means they will always be looking for an alternative.
If we went into a supermarket or cash and carry and instead of price labels on the products each one said "please see manager in his office for a private chat" we would think it ridiculous wouldn't we? If we went online to buy a laptop or a camera from Curry's and the website said "ring up for prices" wouldn't it seem odd? How is buying vending stock any different?
At the end of the day we're not buying a rug from a bazaar in Marakesh so why should we haggle over prices, why should how much you pay differ depending on how much you argue or how silver-tongued you are? This business is crying out for someone new to come along and say "these are the prices and these are the discounts we offer if you buy this much, and so on.. - no haggling, the price is the price for everyone" I think they could take a huge chunk of the market just because they are honest, people know where they stand and are not being ripped off.
Transparent prices
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Guest
Re: Transparent prices
I think that Hurleys are transparent in that if you buy so many boxes you get so much off. The more you buy the more discount. The Marstons deal is a separate issue but not an amazing deal you get a discount similar to buying 90 boxes - worse on some items!
I understand tubz vending do the same?
Individuals will always screw a better deal through relationship negotiations and bulk buying.
Not so sure they are honest with pot prices though
I understand tubz vending do the same?
Individuals will always screw a better deal through relationship negotiations and bulk buying.
Not so sure they are honest with pot prices though
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Guest
Re: Transparent prices
Guest wrote: I thought this subject deserved a separate thread.
What you are talking about is quite simple, it's called competition. Competition in the marketplace is normal and businesses should expect to compete with each other on pricing, this is part of business and good for the consumer as it keeps prices in check.
Supermarkets compete with each other, cash and carry's compete with each other and know each other's prices. Pretty much every business that involves selling something to someone else competes with other businesses in the same field, so why should vending suppliers be any different?
A supplier should base their prices on what it costs to produce whatever they are selling plus the costs of overheads and what they see as a reasonable profit, if another supplier decides they can sell it for less then that is up to them, and if a company cannot compete with the prices that are being offered elsewhere then they should get out of the business and someone else will take their place, that's how capitalism works.
Your comments -"Pretty soon the suppliers will be working for nothing due to all the discounts they have had to give to get the big orders, and in the end we will all lose out" and "I can see why suppliers try to keep contracts and pricing as private as possible, it stops price wars kicking off and everyone losing out!" do not make sense, how do we all lose out? Offering discounts and price wars may be something the suppliers want to avoid but they are good news for the customer.
Your anecdote about the cleaning business isn't really relevant, all it proves is that you shouldn't have offered to undercut anyone else's offer by 10%.
Another extremely important part of getting and retaining people's business other than prices is customer satisfaction/service and this is where I think the big two suppliers are making a huge mistake in the long run. If someone suspects that they are being charged more than other customers for the same goods then they are going to think the company is taking advantage of them and basically sees them as a mug, this is not good for long term loyalty to the supplier and means they will always be looking for an alternative.
If we went into a supermarket or cash and carry and instead of price labels on the products each one said "please see manager in his office for a private chat" we would think it ridiculous wouldn't we? If we went online to buy a laptop or a camera from Curry's and the website said "ring up for prices" wouldn't it seem odd? How is buying vending stock any different?
At the end of the day we're not buying a rug from a bazaar in Marakesh so why should we haggle over prices, why should how much you pay differ depending on how much you argue or how silver-tongued you are? This business is crying out for someone new to come along and say "these are the prices and these are the discounts we offer if you buy this much, and so on.. - no haggling, the price is the price for everyone" I think they could take a huge chunk of the market just because they are honest, people know where they stand and are not being ripped off.
Guest wrote: I thought this subject deserved a separate thread.
What you are talking about is quite simple, it's called competition. Competition in the marketplace is normal and businesses should expect to compete with each other on pricing, this is part of business and good for the consumer as it keeps prices in check.
Supermarkets compete with each other, cash and carry's compete with each other and know each other's prices. Pretty much every business that involves selling something to someone else competes with other businesses in the same field, so why should vending suppliers be any different?
A supplier should base their prices on what it costs to produce whatever they are selling plus the costs of overheads and what they see as a reasonable profit, if another supplier decides they can sell it for less then that is up to them, and if a company cannot compete with the prices that are being offered elsewhere then they should get out of the business and someone else will take their place, that's how capitalism works.
Your comments -"Pretty soon the suppliers will be working for nothing due to all the discounts they have had to give to get the big orders, and in the end we will all lose out" and "I can see why suppliers try to keep contracts and pricing as private as possible, it stops price wars kicking off and everyone losing out!" do not make sense, how do we all lose out? Offering discounts and price wars may be something the suppliers want to avoid but they are good news for the customer.
Your anecdote about the cleaning business isn't really relevant, all it proves is that you shouldn't have offered to undercut anyone else's offer by 10%.
Another extremely important part of getting and retaining people's business other than prices is customer satisfaction/service and this is where I think the big two suppliers are making a huge mistake in the long run. If someone suspects that they are being charged more than other customers for the same goods then they are going to think the company is taking advantage of them and basically sees them as a mug, this is not good for long term loyalty to the supplier and means they will always be looking for an alternative.
If we went into a supermarket or cash and carry and instead of price labels on the products each one said "please see manager in his office for a private chat" we would think it ridiculous wouldn't we? If we went online to buy a laptop or a camera from Curry's and the website said "ring up for prices" wouldn't it seem odd? How is buying vending stock any different?
At the end of the day we're not buying a rug from a bazaar in Marakesh so why should we haggle over prices, why should how much you pay differ depending on how much you argue or how silver-tongued you are? This business is crying out for someone new to come along and say "these are the prices and these are the discounts we offer if you buy this much, and so on.. - no haggling, the price is the price for everyone" I think they could take a huge chunk of the market just because they are honest, people know where they stand and are not being ripped off.
*sigh* Where do I start with this?
Perhaps we should start with outlining the differences between a consumer, retailer and supplier, as I think you may have got a little confused with this in the analogies you put forward.
CONSUMER
1.A purchaser of a good or service in retail.
2.An end user, and not necessarily a purchaser, in the distribution chain of a good or service. See also customer.
RETAILER
1.A business or person that sells goods to the consumer, as opposed to a wholesaler or supplier, who normally sell their goods to another business.
SUPPLIER
1.A supplier is an entity that supplies goods and services to another organization.
2.A supplier is usually a manufacturer or a distributor. A distributor buys goods from multiple manufacturers and sells them to its customers.
''If we went into a supermarket or cash and carry and instead of price labels on the products each one said "please see manager in his office for a private chat" we would think it ridiculous wouldn't we? If we went online to buy a laptop or a camera from Curry's and the website said "ring up for prices" wouldn't it seem odd? How is buying vending stock any different?''
The problem with this analogy, as I'm sure you have guessed, is that in our business we are the retailer (just like Tesco) and the people that buy the range of products in our machines are the consumer. Supermarkets/curry's buy goods from suppliers and then sell them on to consumers, after adding a margin, just like we do with the stuff we source from our suppliers (tubz vending, hurley's, sweetlove, Booker, handcocks).
Do you think that all the companies that supply the supermarkets and shops (Heinz, Coca-cola, Walkers) have a website where they specify how much they will charge different size retailers for their products? No, of course not, as they would all be undercut by competitors, or forced into unfavorable deals with retailers.
Our industry though, would be better compared to the pound shops (as we both have a fixed retail price), where there are several large chains and countless independent shops. Do you think that when sourcing, lets say tins of beans, that Heinz have a published list of prices based on how big the retailer is? Also do you think that Poundland have the same deal with Heinz as Poundworld, or 99p stores? And do you think that they all get to know the prices their supplier (Heinz) has charged them all for the same product? The answer to all the above is no!
The price that I, or you pays a supplier for stock has got nothing to do with anyone else, in just the same way that the price Tesco pays a farmer for a pint of milk has got sod all to do with what Morrisons pay the same farmer, or what the guy in our corner shop wishes he could get it for.
''Your comments -"Pretty soon the suppliers will be working for nothing due to all the discounts they have had to give to get the big orders, and in the end we will all lose out" and "I can see why suppliers try to keep contracts and pricing as private as possible, it stops price wars kicking off and everyone losing out!" do not make sense, how do we all lose out? Offering discounts and price wars may be something the suppliers want to avoid but they are good news for the customer.''
Cast your mind back to last year when it emerged that processed meat suppliers had been padding out the beef burgers with bits of Desert Orchid and Shergar. It was widely agnowledged at the time that a contributory factor was competition in the sector which forced suppliers to undercut each other in order to get the orders from retailers. I'm not for one minute suggesting that It would get so bad in vending that our suppliers would resort to padding out the sweets with bits of horse, but price wars between suppliers always end up going one way, with the quality of the product suffering. I don't know about you but I would very quickly start losing sales if I were only able to buy the cheapest nastiest sweets on the market, because our suppliers had started cutting costs by sourcing the cheapest version of everything.
Also does anyone remember City-Link going to the wall last Christmas? It was a direct result of retailers demanding lower and lower prices for their services, and being undercut by other companies to a point where they were doing it at cost. We would all lose out if we drove the suppliers to the wall due to insisting they publish pricing deals, and engage in price wars with other suppliers, as we would all end up unsecured creditors for any paid for and not delivered orders.
''Another extremely important part of getting and retaining people's business other than prices is customer satisfaction/service and this is where I think the big two suppliers are making a huge mistake in the long run. If someone suspects that they are being charged more than other customers for the same goods then they are going to think the company is taking advantage of them and basically sees them as a mug, this is not good for long term loyalty to the supplier and means they will always be looking for an alternative''.
You seem to be confusing 'customer service' with pricing here, as I've said before no customer gets the same pricing structure as their competitors, even ones of a similar size. I would assume that all our suppliers have a different margin on different products (It's called Contribution based margin pricing, but I don't think I have time to teach you it), so the overall price we pay would depend on which products we ordered, as well as the overall volumes.
''Supermarkets compete with each other, cash and carry's compete with each other and know each other's prices.''
So Booker know what price Handcock's pay Coca-Cola for their Coke/Fanta/Sprite do they?
No, thought not....
''This business is crying out for someone new to come along and say "these are the prices and these are the discounts we offer if you buy this much, and so on.. - no haggling, the price is the price for everyone"''
Do you not think that if Hurley's did this, the following week tubz vending would do the same ting only 50p per case cheaper, then the following week Hurley's do it back? Pretty quickly product quality and quantity would suffer (our repeat sales suffering with it), and eventually one of them would go bust, probably taking a load of our cash with it when they fail to fulfill the last lot of orders!
At the end of the day we as retailers have a choice on which products, from which suppliers, we stock for our customers, and part of that consideration should be the margin we leave for ourselves. But we should also bear in mind that we are retailers buying from suppliers, and as such we have no right to know what deals and arrangements have been made between them and our competitors.
Mark@Yorvend
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Guest
Re: Transparent prices
As retailers we sell products to our customers but we also buy stock from our suppliers so we are consumers also, we are both. Thanks for the lesson anyway, although I'm not sure what the point of it was.
The basis of your argument relies on comparing us to Tesco, Morrisons and Poundland buying from Heinz or Coca Cola, if we were all buying hundreds or thousands of pallets of stock at a time in boardroom deals that were commercially sensitive I would maybe agree with you, but obviously we are not. A better analogy would be the corner shop buying from a cash and carry, after all lots of us use cash and carry's and as far as I know not many of us are buying direct from Mars or Haribo. tubz vending and Hurley's are not really much different to cash and carry's except we order over the phone, they pot their own sweets but they don't actually manufacture the sweets so comparing them to the size and scale of Heinz and Coca Cola is just wrong.
You seem to be assuming that competition on pricing is a bad thing and will automatically lead to inferior products and companies going bust, why is this the case? If we look at the big supermarkets, they compete on prices, offer discounts and have 'price wars' and the vast majority still have very healthy annual profits and we don't see them going bust on a regular basis do we? Competition is healthy for the market as it keeps prices in check and stops any one company from having a monopoly and charging what they want, imagine if there were only two big supermarkets how much higher prices would be? Seeing any comparisons here?
Yes, sometimes businesses can't compete and go under but that is one of the risks of being in business and pricing is just one of many factors that can make a business fail.
When I said "Supermarkets compete with each other, cash and carry's compete with each other and know each other's prices" I was talking about the prices they charge their customers (us), not the prices they pay for goods from their own suppliers.
The market regulates itself - if one company starts cutting costs and producing cheap, nasty sweets then another company makes the quality of their sweets a selling point as price is just one factor when choosing a supplier, if one company cuts their prices so much they are no longer making a profit and go bust another company takes their place, that's how the market works. tubz vending and Hurley's have been in this business a long time and I'm sure they have a fair idea of what each other sells their products for, I'm sure they appreciate your concern but to suggest they would rashly slash prices and quality to the extent that one or both go out of business is naive.
Your whole argument seems to be based on the idea that competition is bad and if suppliers published prices it would be the apocalypse for the industry when this is totally at odds with how equivalent sectors of the retail business work.
The basis of your argument relies on comparing us to Tesco, Morrisons and Poundland buying from Heinz or Coca Cola, if we were all buying hundreds or thousands of pallets of stock at a time in boardroom deals that were commercially sensitive I would maybe agree with you, but obviously we are not. A better analogy would be the corner shop buying from a cash and carry, after all lots of us use cash and carry's and as far as I know not many of us are buying direct from Mars or Haribo. tubz vending and Hurley's are not really much different to cash and carry's except we order over the phone, they pot their own sweets but they don't actually manufacture the sweets so comparing them to the size and scale of Heinz and Coca Cola is just wrong.
You seem to be assuming that competition on pricing is a bad thing and will automatically lead to inferior products and companies going bust, why is this the case? If we look at the big supermarkets, they compete on prices, offer discounts and have 'price wars' and the vast majority still have very healthy annual profits and we don't see them going bust on a regular basis do we? Competition is healthy for the market as it keeps prices in check and stops any one company from having a monopoly and charging what they want, imagine if there were only two big supermarkets how much higher prices would be? Seeing any comparisons here?
Yes, sometimes businesses can't compete and go under but that is one of the risks of being in business and pricing is just one of many factors that can make a business fail.
When I said "Supermarkets compete with each other, cash and carry's compete with each other and know each other's prices" I was talking about the prices they charge their customers (us), not the prices they pay for goods from their own suppliers.
The market regulates itself - if one company starts cutting costs and producing cheap, nasty sweets then another company makes the quality of their sweets a selling point as price is just one factor when choosing a supplier, if one company cuts their prices so much they are no longer making a profit and go bust another company takes their place, that's how the market works. tubz vending and Hurley's have been in this business a long time and I'm sure they have a fair idea of what each other sells their products for, I'm sure they appreciate your concern but to suggest they would rashly slash prices and quality to the extent that one or both go out of business is naive.
Your whole argument seems to be based on the idea that competition is bad and if suppliers published prices it would be the apocalypse for the industry when this is totally at odds with how equivalent sectors of the retail business work.
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Guest
Re: Transparent prices
You're absolutely right, prices aren't important and have no effect on our business ...Guest wrote:what a pointless thread
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Guest
Re: Transparent prices
I agree pointless thread. It might be worth having the discussion in an open forum where a supplier could see that one of their customers isnt happy. But whats the point in hiding this?
Andy
Andy
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Guest
Re: Transparent prices
It's not a complaint about one supplier or the other, it's a general point that it would be fairer for everyone if prices and discounts were just based on how much you buy. When you buy from your supplier, maybe you get a good deal, maybe you don't, but to not publish price lists and/or discounts creates suspicion that they are not being published for a reason.
It's a discussion on pricing, why is it important that people are identified?
It's a discussion on pricing, why is it important that people are identified?
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Guest
Re: Transparent prices
What do you have to hide?
You will never have set prices in any industry. I dont generally negotiate in Tesco but if I was buying a sofa from DFS or getting my kitchen fitted or buying new windows I would always ask for a discount. As with any supplier in any industry suppliers have a price and if customers are happy to pay that then they are going to take it. Even if they reduced prices and set them at an average of what everyone paid people would still ask for discounts.
Andy
You will never have set prices in any industry. I dont generally negotiate in Tesco but if I was buying a sofa from DFS or getting my kitchen fitted or buying new windows I would always ask for a discount. As with any supplier in any industry suppliers have a price and if customers are happy to pay that then they are going to take it. Even if they reduced prices and set them at an average of what everyone paid people would still ask for discounts.
Andy
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Guest
Re: Transparent prices
What do I have to hide?
I have absolutely nothing to hide, I have been completely direct about what I am suggesting as I pointed out in the post above yours. A post should be judged on the content, not who the poster is. Tell you what, if you can suggest why I might have some sort of secret agenda or be hiding something why don't you explain what on earth that could possibly be and also tell me why it matters who I am? Obviously if you can't I would have to assume you're saying it on someone else's behalf.
You don't generally negotiate in Tesco? Wait, so sometimes you do? How does that go for you?
When you get your discount from DFS or your fitted kitchen or whatever do you walk away thinking "what a score! really beat them down on the price there!!" or does it occur to you that just maybe the prices were hiked up in the first place so that they can then throw discounts around?
I see what you're saying and I've seen it before in other threads, basically you think everyone should ask for discounts no matter how much they are buying and the daft mugs who don't negotiate a price drop are then effectively subsidising the ones that do.
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the suppliers WANT you to think that so that everyone goes away happy with their 'DFS' discount?
I had really hoped the suppliers might actually respond but they seem happy to argue through their proxies. Anyway, I can't be bothered any more, when there is only two suppliers it's unrealistic to expect any real competition on price even if they did publish prices and discounts. Let's just stick with the status quo.
I have absolutely nothing to hide, I have been completely direct about what I am suggesting as I pointed out in the post above yours. A post should be judged on the content, not who the poster is. Tell you what, if you can suggest why I might have some sort of secret agenda or be hiding something why don't you explain what on earth that could possibly be and also tell me why it matters who I am? Obviously if you can't I would have to assume you're saying it on someone else's behalf.
You don't generally negotiate in Tesco? Wait, so sometimes you do? How does that go for you?
When you get your discount from DFS or your fitted kitchen or whatever do you walk away thinking "what a score! really beat them down on the price there!!" or does it occur to you that just maybe the prices were hiked up in the first place so that they can then throw discounts around?
I see what you're saying and I've seen it before in other threads, basically you think everyone should ask for discounts no matter how much they are buying and the daft mugs who don't negotiate a price drop are then effectively subsidising the ones that do.
Have you ever stopped to think that maybe the suppliers WANT you to think that so that everyone goes away happy with their 'DFS' discount?
I had really hoped the suppliers might actually respond but they seem happy to argue through their proxies. Anyway, I can't be bothered any more, when there is only two suppliers it's unrealistic to expect any real competition on price even if they did publish prices and discounts. Let's just stick with the status quo.